Have you considered what the church is?
The more I consider the meaning and the significance of what it means to be included in both the invisible church of God and the visible church the more important it has become to belong to church that does church the right way. As a Protestant, we of course would draw a distinction between the edifice we call the church and the people we call the church. I remember a conversation I had close to fifteen years ago with a gentleman who had been nearly ordained as a Roman Catholic priest, he said:
“You Christians do not even have a proper church… you don’t even need a building to have a church service, yet you call yourselves a church? We have churches. We have the buildings in which we perform the mass. All you need is a tent and some chairs and you call that a church”.
Even though I was a very young Christian at the time, all that I remember saying was, “Amen”.
Of course the church is more than building it is the people. But what is the purpose and the reason to have a church service? Why do we as believers of the one true God need to assemble? It is now possible to sit at my desk in pajamas with a cup of coffee while listening to the morning service at the mega-church of my choice. That somehow doesn’t seem to fit in with what the Bible tells us of these assemblies and what they were for.
I seem to have more questions than answers…
Is the church service only meant for the believer?
Should a non-believer participate in singing worship songs?
Is the service meant to evangelize to the lost or teach the sheep?
How should we dress?
How often to have communion?
How should the pastor present the word of God, through stories and jokes?
Should the message be dumbed down?
Should offensive or hard passages no longer be read from the pulpit?
Should we have a pulpit?
Should the worship music be about a great performance rather leading the people in the worship of God?
How loud is too loud when it comes to worship?
Can the pastor really know all of his flock?
Is a big church bad for true believer?
Is it really possible for a church to start in the shallow end and more than ten years later be even shallower than when it first started?
All comments and additional questions welcome.
Jesus, I felt your list of questions was too long for me to deal with in the comments, so I copied them and made a whole new post about them at my blog. I wasn’t too sure that some might have been rhetorical, but I tried to answer them anyway.
They are all very good questions, ones that certainly should make us all think!
BTW, good to see you blogging again!
Perhaps, like when the early church was arguing over things, different Christians prefer to worship dif ways. Maybe however God leads your group is the way you should go, taking care not to judge others for their choice…as long as it is for the glory of God.
Personally, having known Catholic Christians and Protestant Christians…(I’m sure you will agree that just being a member doesn’t make you a Christian), the two places that really come to mind for this topic are totally different from the Southern Baptist Church I grew up in.
I feel a special fondness for the “old school” hymns and way of doing things, maybe because I learned so much in that environment. FORTUNATELY, my church was not just smoke and mirrors, there was a true longing and seeking for God’s will.
The first of my two “different” experiences that left me feeling at home with fellow believers was in a very ornate Catholic church for a weekday mass (maybe?). People came in and left at will and were dressed in work clothes. I think the service was in Latin…and I don’t mean Spanish, BUT IT WAS AWESOME…unable to understand the service may have even caused me to depend more on the Holy Spirit’s guidance. We were a helter skelter group there in TRUE REVERENCE like a don’t recall before or after. It was a blessed experience and I understand why people would chose to worship that way all the time.
The other (probably my pref. “church”) was during a youth trip…maybe Epworth by the Sea, and we had driven to the beach for an evening bible study with a bonfire….WOW! No words are worthy. Similar experiences in the mountains…my friends have shared with me and I have also known, but nothing, no Cathedral, no nothing, no fancy anything could compare with what God created with that ocean crashing, the faces of fellow believers glowing in the firelight, simple songs and heartfelt words….
Maybe, just like different parts of the Body of Christ, we each have different worship styles, and I believe Heaven it will be a million times (plus) better than that beach or that Cathedral, or even my sweet Southern Baptist Church combined.
For now, maybe we should just each go with the style that we feel helps us to get in the mood to worship our Precious God.
I have struggled with this question for a few years. I am new to the church environment, and started attending my first (and current) church a few years ago – a relatively large (congregation of a thousand or so, with about four thousand members) Southern Baptist church in Phoenix, AZ.
What I have witnessed in my church has caused me to question the whole idea of church – not at all to reject it, just to rethink what it’s meant to be. I have seen micro-management at every level (from the individual leaders, to the leadership committees, and so on) replace the providence of God with man’s institutional methods, practices, procedures and rules. Instead of walking in the faith that the Holy Spirit will guide us and help everything to come together as God intends, we have chosen to hand over the authority to planners, advisors, committees, consultants, and anything else we are able to devise of our own counsel. I actually think that it’s more of a reaction rather than a cause – the cause being the degeneration of faith and disregard of obedience to God in our hearts. To be honest, hardly a day has gone by when I did not consider leaving the church – I do not want to be counted among the people who only pay lip service to God. But that’s something for another post, perhaps.
Here is my opinion of what “church” is…
It is not a building, though they is such a thing as a “church building.” It is not an event, though there is such a thing as a “church event” (ie: Sunday service). Church is not something that you can directly join. When a man is convicted of sin, repents and changes his ways to follow the Lord Jesus Christ, whom he believes is the Son of God whom God sent to die on the cross as the final sacrifice and offering to obsolve all who trust in him and follow him from sin, and when that man decides that he will live for Christ in faith and obedience, in spirit and in truth, then that man is automatically inherited into the Body of Christ, which is the church. Billions of Christians, though separated by space and time (no matter their nationality, or race, or age, or gender), are members of the same church: the Body of Christ. Now, as I distringuished earlier between “church” and “church events” and “church buildings”, so I will add another: “church institution.” That is the denomination, or the sect of the Christian religion which separates itself from the rest on arbitrary grounds (some, arguably, cannot even rightly be called “Christian” as they reject even the basic tenets of the faith). I should say, I don’t think any of the latter three parts (events, buildings, institutions) are inherently wrong. But I will say that the Body of Christ, into which all genuine Christians are received without a choice, is inherently right. It is more than an occurance, a label, or a physical thing. It is the living spiritual community of God and manifests itself in the hearts of all believers and followers of Christ, in spirit and in truth.
The issue of assembly and service is not much different than this, except I do not believe that it should be so institutionalized. I consider it shameful that the only time that most people (myself included) spend in the company of fellow believers is for a few hours on Sunday mornings. We put ourselves and our families above the church, which is part of the cause that I mentioned above. Our priorities are mixed up because we have become institutionalized in our ways and our hearts do not seek after the heart of God every moment of the day, as they should. I will say this: I do not think that church service should be made longer, or more frequent. If anything perhaps it should end completely. Perhaps then we would be forced to reflect on our need for a truly thriving dynamic relationship with God. I believe if that happened we would see many start to come together more often. We would see services occuring more frequently, with much longer durations, and there would be a much greater sense of community, initiated not by the insistance of leadership but by the love that pours out of our hearts for one another, for the love of God would fill us that much. I should say, also, that I don’t think the size of the assembly matters (whether it’s 5 people in an apartment, 20 in a park, or 10,000 in a stadium). If there is a place to speak and listen (sermon) and sing (praise), and if there are genuine relationships that are forming and flourishing within the community (congregation), then everything is sufficient. But regardless of what will be (even if there is no sermon and just singing, or no singing and just a sermon), let it be done from the heart.
Now I would like to take some time to share my opinions on your questions:
Is the church service only meant for the believer?
I think that anyone – those who seek God, and those who know him – should be welcome, but the church should decide (for example, a nonbeliever who comes out of curiosity versus an unbeliever who comes to criticize and mock).
Should a non-believer participate in singing worship songs?
If they feel compelled to sing they should be allowed to, but they should never feel obligated nor should anyone in the church make them feel that they should. I would not say a nonbeliever should be sought to be a member of the “praise team” (as it’s often called) – that is, the singers and musicians who lead the songs – as I think any leadership role should be reserved for believers, but moreover I say God’s will be done, as I am not one who will limit his grace if he chooses to bring a nonbeliever to know him through such a position.
Is the service meant to evangelize to the lost or teach the sheep?
I’ve struggled with this question for some time. I have a personal answer, and a final answer. My personal answer is that it should teach the sheep, as they are the church (Body of Christ). However, my final answer is that it should never be decided by anyone except the one who will speak. Here is my reason: if you bring it to committee, or try to create a charter, that firmly sets which one it should be, then you will look to that instead of God, and the Holy Spirit will not work in you to its potential. I believe that every pastor and preacher should abide in what Christ said in Matthew 10:19: “Do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak.” A man who rides on his own understanding will not be able to reach God’s people as God intends the same as a man who, in faith, allows the Holy Spirit to speak through him. Then, the service will not merely evangelize the lost or teach the sheep, but will speak the words of God to all who listen and hear. Of course, that takes a pastor who is a very Godly man, and in my experience that has been hard to find. Nevertheless, our primary responsibility is not to man but to God, for we show our love to him in our faith and obedience.
How should we dress?
The same as in any place: modestly. Do not seek to draw attention to yourself, nor be in denial of improper or unsuitable attention that is brought to you. We should want to see one another as God sees us (beyond the physical appearance, into our hearts), and cancelling out the distraction of revealing or blatantly apparent dress goes a long way in promoting and preserving that.
How often to have communion?
I don’t have much of an opinion on this other than to say that it’s too precious a practice to limit it, but I do not think that it should be overdone. Let it be at the discretion of the body of believers who come together whether they choose to honor the Lord in remembrance that day. If they were so inclined to do it each and every day I would count them blessed and pray for the Lord to bless them all the more. But that, perhaps more than any rite of the faith, should come from the heart.
How should the pastor present the word of God, through stories and jokes?
I do not think that a congregation where God is anything less than absolutely prevelant should tell a joke. Nor should a story be told that intentionally inspires humor, but rather only convicts them so as to lead them closer to God. A congregation that does any less, in my opinion, dishonors God.
Should the message be dumbed down?
Christ, in a sense, dumbed down the truths that he spoke of by relating them in parables: “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables.” (Mark 4:11-12). Many times in a service I hear simple truths conveyed over and over again and wish that more would be said and expressed in a deeper way, and other times I feel like the pastor only elludes to the truth that he is getting at in his message and that if he would speak it more plainly more people would be convicted of it. I cannot say that it is wrong to speak either. What I think is wrong is when a pastor does not seek most fervantly after God, humbling himself in absolute faith and obedienceto receive the message that he will speak to God’s people. If I am confident that the pastor is doing that, and that God is truly with him, then I don’t care where the message goes because I know that God has decided.
Should offensive or hard passages no longer be read from the pulpit?
The day that I find out that the leadership in my church has done that is the day that I will either leave it or condemn it, or both. There is no room for dumbing down in that respect. Political correctness, and a cushy Gospel, are enemies to God.
Should we have a pulpit?
A pulpit serve many purposes. Being in an elevated place ensures that you are seen and that your voice projects well. Having a podium functions as a reading stand. If it is kept for the purpose that it serves then yes, but if a man should exalt himself in it or by it then he is not fit to stand there.
Should the worship music be about a great performance rather leading the people in the worship of God?
That’s a tough one. Whenever you have a beautiful voice or face singing, much attention is drawn to them that should be drawn to the message of the song and to God if the heart were in the right place. I have been guilty of this myself – we’ve had a few singers who wowed me with their natural beauty (yes, I’m a single man :) ) or their voice and I forgot part of what they were singing about. But that was my own fault, and I would never put the blame on them (though the issue of attention, as discussed in fourth question, may play a role, nevertheless). I think my answer to this goes back to what I alluded to at the end of previous questions: if God is truly honored in the hearts of all the congregation (the regular assembly and the leadership) in faith and obedience then I cannot imagine questioning it. I’ll tell you, there have been times when I was deeply greived in the worship portion of the service and did not sing because I realized of the disconnect from God in the church, and other times where we all became so deeply convicted that we could not help but sing for joy, to praise God for his loving kindness and mercy.
How loud is too loud when it comes to worship?
I believe that my opinion on this is very subjective, though I am not certain that I am not objectively right to some degree. Despite being young, I despise most (though not all) of the Christian music of my time: the lyrics, primarily. I find them to be uninspiring, often shallow, and in that reflective of a broken generation. I’m in my twenties, but my heart is most overjoyed at the hymns of old. They expressed God with so much more depth and purity than what we sing in my church today. And I often find that the musical instruments and technology that is implemented goes hand-in-hand with it. When we do sing the old hymns (which is by no means often) they are accompanied by natural classical instruments, whereas the modern music is played through loud blairing speakers on electric guitars and drums that come together in a sound that is chaotic at best, and assaulting to the spirit at worst. Again, I present this subjectively, but I believe what I say has objective merrit.
Can the pastor really know all of his flock?
If it is God’s will. In larger churches it becomes more difficult, as the time that he has allotted to spend with the members of his congregation does not grow as their numbers do. But, as much as we would all like to get to know the wise man of God (hopefully they are one) whose job it is to help keep us set in the right direction, we should never insult God by believing that a pastor can do more for us than the Holy Spirit of Truth, which is the one and true helper.
Is a big church bad for true believer?
Depends on what purpose God has for that believer. Being in a large church myself, God has shown me the pitfalls and the advantages (more so the former). If God should lead me to another place, to a smaller group perhaps, I would be thankful for the lessons that he taught me in the big church that I am in. I do believe that a smaller group is more effective, and I think that’s what big churches should try to promote. But I cannot say that a big church is an inherent handicap or disadvantage for anyone, it just depends on its state. It’s very difficult (if possible) to find a big church that is not a bloated beauracracy, where God’s guidance has taken a backseat among the leadership to their own micro-management. If a big church truly relies wholely on the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and its leadership is truly set apart in their faith and obedience to God, then I think it will be a benefit to everyone it affects, directly and indirectly. But, alas, I have not known of such a church (though I pray that is only on account of my limited knowledge).
Is it really possible for a church to start in the shallow end and more than ten years later be even shallower than when it first started?
Luke 14:11: “For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.” Short answer: Yes. God delights in the people who seek after him, abandoning their own ways to follow his. If they do not then he will abandon them. Psalm 81:11-12: “But My people would not heed My voice, And Israel would have none of Me. So I gave them over to their own stubborn heart, to walk in their own counsels.”
First, yes, the Church is the people.
Second, you have some great questions here – questions that are asked by believers all over the globe. I think, though, that you will find that most of the mechanics of a public worship service of Christians are not dictated.
I think that the term “Worship Service” or “Mass” (though I’m not Roman Catholic) more properly represent what we refer to as “going to Church”.
The purpose of attending public worship is to:
1. Meet with God
2. Discipleship – growing into the image of Christ.
This will involve things such as the public reading of the Bible, fellowship with other believers, instruction, and overt worship of the Trinity.
You can have these basic elements regardless of the “mechanics” of how a worship service is actually assembled. Questions of how often to receive Communion and so on will be answered based on the preference of the congregation and/or leadership as they work out their collective salvation(s) with fear and trembling, submitting to the word of God.
This leads us to an interesting point – working out collective salvation(s). The life of Christ is intended to be lived in community – a place of mutual accountability. A place where we end up being shaped into the image of Christ by both the failings and the successes of those around us. And they by us.
It is in this place – a place where we are KNOWN – that Christ is formed in us. Where our love and joy are perfected. And where we are able to carry the burdens of others when they are weak.
[…] 25 08 2008 My blogger friend, Jesus deSaenz, has posted an entry on his blog called “The Church …” in which he asks quite a number of interesting questions. Now I don’t claim to be […]
We are the church as individuals Christ is our head and we are in the position to do what God calls us to be and that is the hands and feet!